Mafia 14 - The Good, The Bad and The Ugly Mafia: Game over-TOWN WIN!

[hippo]

unvote hammerbro

since we found out that Hammer's an incompetent mod, and names mean nothing.

Which means i'm going back to my original theory with regards to how we have to play this. A cop has told us he has found somebody guilty - we have to therefore act on it. If he's lying, we'll know straight away. If he's paranoid, we'll know straight away. But the most likely outcome is that he is in fact guilty. The other options are probably about 5%.

It makes absolutely no sense to suggest that hammerbro is making a mafia move. Claiming cop falsely is something a mafia could do, but later in the game when it could win them the game by staying alive the one extra night - it's pointless at this stage. Suicide in fact. And they're already one down.

It doesn't make sense what stevenryals is saying either, whereby the mafia can benefit because they get to take "a few more townie lives". Unless there's something bizarre, the mafia would take 1 life per night, and they'd do that whether hammerbro (if, like steven is suggesting, he's mafia) was alive or not. Unless it's a 2 person mafia, which is pretty unlikely. So no, that doesn't make sense.

Saying he's paranoid is a ridiculously long shot too, in my eyes. Most cops are not, we can't just not lynch guilty people, because that person suggests the cop must be paranoid. It's a possibility, but if we start saying stuff like this, we'll never actually lynch anyone. Put yourself in the same position: you're evil, you've been found guilty, what are the things you're going to suggest to get out of it? Exactly.

It just seems like he's been found guilty, and is trying to take the cop out before he goes, to help the rest of his evil group for the rest of the game. Got bloody close thanks to that name thing too.

So yeah, i think we have to vote stevenryals.

[stevenryals]

I think it's pretty silly of you hippo to not consider that something's amiss here..  considering your background in the game and experience..

i'll try to lay it out for you.

I was the catalyst for bluestars lynch

i hinted twice early on at my role

someone has hinted at a counter claim to hammerbro but hasnt fully said it (could be wrong, but sure seemed a strong post in the direction of a counterclaim)

both my name & hammerbro's name seem consistent with the was hammer is naming the town with a general character first name (sherriff, reverend, etc) and an real persons last name.   
Maybe you didnt notice that because your role is named differently possibly?  wonder why yours may be different? i cant say for certain, but if all the townies look at their name, i bet they will be similar unless they are yet unnammed like amadjin (which im still not convinced of by the way).

if there's a paranoid cop, then there must be a real cop as well..  whom I think I am aware of..  and per their posts I think he's investigated someone who's been online today..  i wish the rest of the town would get on and read the posts, because I think something is there and you all havent picked up on it..

[hippo]

I'm not saying him being paranoid is completely out of the question, because it isn't. Like i said, there's about a 5% chance of it. And i'm not saying he definitely isn't mafia, because i don't know - i don't think it would make sense, but i don't know. It's my "background in the game and experience" that says, as a rule, you lynch somebody who has been found guilty via an in investigation. Because on the vast majority of occasions, they are guilty. Honestly, who would you have voted for, had it not been you accused?

I was the catalyst for bluestars lynch

What i remember happening, was you pointed something decent out about her, and then completely changed your mind when a few people voted for her, even accusing me of "risking losing us a townie power role" by accusing her. You then only re-voted for her when you realised that she was definitely going to be lynched (after all of your threats of suicide in fact). So no, steven, you weren't as important to the lynch as you've been trying to claim today. You tried to stop it a few times.

i hinted twice early on at my role

You hinted that you knew there was a cult, and claimed something vaguely under pressure from myself. It's not like you just decided to do this to leave a few clues - you were having a stress about me finding you suspicious at the time, and decided you needed to claim something to try and diffuse the pressure.

someone has hinted at a counter claim to hammerbro but hasnt fully said it (could be wrong, but sure seemed a strong post in the direction of a counterclaim)

I didn't think it was wise to highlight this, surprisingly. You did. Great work. Was this done because you realise you might not make the night phase, and wanted to make sure whoever else you're with had picked up on it? If you're a townie, that makes it even crazier.

[stevenryals]

What i remember happening, was you pointed something decent out about her, and then completely changed your mind when a few people voted for her, even accusing me of "risking losing us a townie power role" by accusing her. You then only re-voted for her when you realised that she was definitely going to be lynched (after all of your threats of suicide in fact). So no, steven, you weren't as important to the lynch as you've been trying to claim today. You tried to stop it a few times.

this is not the first time you've skewed the truth in this game hippo, which is something you usually never do.

what happened, in reality, was after Amadjin jumped in to support her, we all went after amadjin, and at the time that I took my vote off bluestars there were only a couple of votes, and as I stated many times, I was not sure if she was a powerful protown figure or mafia, as her style had changed so much..  you've read the pages, so why skew the facts?  if the facts arent what you want them to be, then they just aren't..  lying = mafia

You hinted that you knew there was a cult, and claimed something vaguely under pressure from myself. It's not like you just decided to do this to leave a few clues - you were having a stress about me finding you suspicious at the time, and decided you needed to claim something to try and diffuse the pressure.

i hinted early on as to my role, and then before being lynched i continued with a bit more info, now everyone knows my whole role, almost every single word of it..  the fact that you continually go after me after I've claimed over and over  my role, and have largely ignored hammerbro will not look good on you later on, you can be assured of that hippo..  apparently hammerbro & i are the only two that know what's going on out of the 5 of us who are actually playing this game..  after I'm lynched and found innocent, it will be your lack of pressure on hammerbro that will hopefully be to your demise, because i'm finding you more sus every moment..

I didn't think it was wise to highlight this, surprisingly. You did. Great work. Was this done because you realise you might not make the night phase, and wanted to make sure whoever else you're with had picked up on it? If you're a townie, that makes it even crazier.

let me get this straight..  you saw it, you understood it, yet you changed your vote from hammerbro to me? even though someone just refuted his claim..  if you're a townie you should have just ketp your keyboard locked, and i wouldnt have had to continue to defend myself..  and yet another thing that makes you sus hippo..

[stevenryals]

Actually come to think of it, when hammerbro was first called out for his 'hackman' role, you didnt go after him, you simply said:

That changes things drastically. I'm not a western fan myself, but is that true? Good pick up if so. Part of the reason i was thinking he was telling the truth, was because it would be an absolutely ridiculous tactic for a mafia player. But it seems to be the case that he was indeed using a ridiculous mafia tactic. Bizarre.

You actually defended yourself for going after me and not him..

after many posts that are 500+ words in my direction... the moment where oen player because more sus than anyone has been thus far, you do nothing but excuse yourself.. 

same team maybe?

[i2i Killer 89]

I'm confused, I can't see this counterclaim Steven, to me you are looking a lot like a mafia person that is clutching at straws trying to make anyone but yourself look evil, especially with your trying to deflect the blame onto Hippo now. Just in the way you are wording everything you say it isn't really looking like a townie way to respond to me, you just seem to be trying too hard and are re-iterating stuff that you've already said when it's not even relevant to the points being made.

My vote is staying where it is

[stevenryals]

I'm confused, I can't see this counterclaim Steven, to me you are looking a lot like a mafia person that is clutching at straws trying to make anyone but yourself look evil

no, not anyone, just hippo..  i found it interesting that he saw the counterclaim, and admitted it, and the next post he changed his vote from hammerbro (who had just been counterclaimed) to me.. 

so, can you tell me how a townie is supposed to act when they have a knife at their throat?  I've posted my role, I've got a mafia player lynched, there's been a counterclaim, yet people are still pushing on me..  So, I'm not going to defend myself anymore..  I have nothing left to say..  you all know everything about me, and in regards to hammerbro you know "sherriff hackman"..  i posted my whole role straight away..  do you want me to post my PM for gods sake?  I may be a useless townie, but I'm still a f****ng townie and dont want to get sacrificed..

[hippo]

what happened, in reality, was after Amadjin jumped in to support her, we all went after amadjin, and at the time that I took my vote off bluestars there were only a couple of votes, and as I stated many times, I was not sure if she was a powerful protown figure or mafia, as her style had changed so much..  you've read the pages, so why skew the facts?  if the facts arent what you want them to be, then they just aren't..  lying = mafia

Right, i'm not lying at all. And i'm willing to go back and find the quotes if it's necessary. But, you could save me the trouble by answering the following:

- Did you not lie about bluestars' previous roles, to justify the idea that her change in style could mean she was a powerful townie? And then when someone pointed out that what you said was untrue, did you not refuse to acknowledge the fact that you'd lied (repeatedly), and carry on saying that it could mean she was a powerful townie?

- Wasn't she leading the vote count already, heading in to a deadline, when you finally re-applied your vote?

I don't expect you to answer, because you've avoided answering a lot of questions this game.

And if anyone's in any doubt about the answers, go back and have a read. Might be quite enlightening for you.

Lynching you is the only possible way forward. We can't lynch someone claiming to be a cop without knowing that they're definitely lying. And we don't. Yes, you've claimed, but should we just believe it? I've said a number of times that i don't necessarily trust hammerbro more than you, but that's not the issue. The issue is whether we want to risk losing your role or a cop. And that's really no choice is it?

[stevenryals]

Sorry hippo i didnt read you post..  I noticed though that you are still directing at me.. even after a counterclaim..

I've posted my role, end of for me..  Im not going to sit here and defend myself against an obvious mafia member and a fake cop who's role claim is so weak it's unbelievable..

I've told you EVERYTHING you need to know..  and I'm not going to continue to repeat myself..

if you want to ignore the counterclaim that you have said you noticed..  and vote off an obvious townie.. fine by me..  do what you will.. but you'll be lynched soon anyway, because after I'm dead everyone will look back and say, hey it was hippo who said he saw the counter claim, and still went after stevenryals and never went after hammerbro...

[hippo]

A counterclaim would involve someone claiming the same character. They didn't. They didn't even claim anything; admittedly we both took it like that, but it wasn't necessarily was it. If it was, they said they were a different one, with a different name.

In this game, we know there is a mafia, a cult, and one other role that can kill. This other role could be anything from a vigilante, right through to another mafia. So there are potentially three evil groups. But you seem to think it's impossible we have 2 different sane cops? 2 sheriffs in fact, in a western. That'd be crazy wouldn't it? We'd need two for balance.

I don't expect you to answer, because you've avoided answering a lot of questions this game.

Sorry hippo i didnt read you post.. 

Priceless.

[stevenryals]

I didn't think it was wise to highlight this, surprisingly. You did. Great work. Was this done because you realise you might not make the night phase, and wanted to make sure whoever else you're with had picked up on it? If you're a townie, that makes it even crazier.

obviously you saw this as a claim..  but now you say:

A counterclaim would involve someone claiming the same character. They didn't. They didn't even claim anything; admittedly we both took it like that, but it wasn't necessarily was it. If it was, they said they were a different one, with a different name.

so it's not a claim?  if it's not.. then why not mention it? 

I see you're still after me, and not worried about anyone else in this game..  well done, at least you're making the townies job easy tomorrow after they find out I'm innocent, and it's mostly your fault that they're down a townie..  so then we'll have two mafia to go after, so at least that gives us a little advantage..

another thing...

So there are potentially three evil groups. But you seem to think it's impossible we have 2 different sane cops? 2 sheriffs in fact, in a western. That'd be crazy wouldn't it? We'd need two for balance.

We may have two different sane cops, but i'll assure you that hammerbro is not one of them..

it's amusing watching you try to make sense..

[hippo]

It's even more amusing watching you avoiding answering why you lied to protect bluestars, yet again. But anyway.

I said it wasn't a "counter claim", and potentially not even a claim. I didn't mention it, because i didn't think it wise to draw attention to it. It has no baring on what we're talking about. A different cop is saying you're guilty. That's why i'm voting for you. If there's another one, fair enough, but it's nothing to do with what this one is saying about you. Unless he's going to say he investigated you, and you've come back innocent. Then it would matter obviously.

Other people are saying the exact same thing as me, but are unwilling to get in a conflict with you about it - which of those actions do you reckon is the most mafia like? Do you genuinely think that i would openly argue with you, clearly in the belief that you're actually guilty, if i knew you werent? I'd lay low because i'd have something to hide and let others say the obvious. I'm not stupid, i know i'm an easy target if i'm wrong. I wouldn't make myself such if i genuinely was dodgy. I also wouldn't have spent fucking hours going through every post to compile statistics and everything to try and find out who the evil people are, but that's by the by. If you weren't so pre-occupied with saving your own skin anyway you think you can, then you'd know this.

Here's my observations about other people during this period. for the record..

Amadjin has posted once i think, since Axeman pointed out that he was seemingly trying to push through a lynch on stevenryals. Taken a step back. Maybe some substance to it?

Trick Pony was on my list of suspects, and he was one of the first people to come out and vote for hammerbro, before there was really any question about what hammerbro was saying. That didn't go unnoticed. Yorkshire Blue did the same and i don't think he's posted since.

Mikeblue was another i mentioned, and he has taken an easy option by voting for someone not involved in any of this. Again, this is suspicious.

But none of this matters today. A COP HAS FOUND STEVENRYALS GUILTY. Like i said before, steven, who would you vote for in that situation? The cop or the one found guilty? I already know the answer of course, not that you'll admit it now.

[stevenryals]

It's even more amusing watching you avoiding answering why you lied to protect bluestars, yet again. But anyway.

considering I'm the one who got her lynched..  I think this is you starting to reach mate.. 

Do you genuinely think that i would openly argue with you, clearly in the belief that you're actually guilty, if i knew you werent?

absolutely, because you know I'm onto you, and I believe you and your mafia friends want me gone badly.. 

If you weren't so pre-occupied with saving your own skin anyway you think you can, then you'd know this.

if you were really after mafia you wouldnt be after me, and then i could spend my time going after mafia.. WAIT.. that's actually what I'm doing now..  because I'm convinced your mafia..

But none of this matters today. A COP HAS FOUND STEVENRYALS GUILTY. Like i said before, steven, who would you vote for in that situation? The cop or the one found guilty? I already know the answer of course, not that you'll admit it now.

Please explain to me why you chose to refer to him as "THE COP", believing him blindly, and you refer to me as "the one found guilty" and not "reverend leone"? 

here's the way I see it hippo, YOU are the one trying push this lynch through, referring to him as cop and me as guilty, ignoring my role and simply assuming that his is accurate based on his word after spending the whole first day not participating in the game.. 


Hippo, you've made two mistakes:

1) when SVH pointed out that Sherriff Hackman was in a different movie, you responded by defending yourself since you had been wrong and trying your best to lynch me, instead of going after the facts and trying to find the truth, you went with what, at the time, was the easy lynch..  now you think I'm the easy lynch and you're back to me..  you my friend are mafia..  and you've slipped

2) when _____ counterclaimed, you recognized it and immediately changed your vote to me.  when at the time you should have interrogated hammerbro to gain more info, but to you it meant nothing because you had decided the run on hammerbro was over and I was now the easy lynch..

Hippo is mafia
Hammerbro is a paranoid cop, not sure if he's mafia, but der hammer has had paranoid cops before and I think that's what we have here..


the fact that hippo doesn't feel comfortable enough to let the town make their decisions, and he keeps posting trying to put more and more pressure on me instead of concentrating on anyone else says the world to me..  there are plenty of sus people..  and after i pushed the lynch on bluestars who turned out to be one of his partners in the mafia..  i was certain of bluestars until I questioned my own judgement..but I was right in the end..  and I'm certain of hippo.. 

hammerbro, i'm not certain.. he actually seems kind of clueless and may be a paranoid cop, so I wouldnt recommend lynching either one of us.. I've read back and decided to UNVOTE hammersbro

[stevenryals]

(by the way, right now it's just hippo and I playing this game..  where the heck are everyone else?)

[Trick Pony]

Sitting here reading, trying to make up my mind on who we should lynch. If only MIASH was in the game I could have made up my mind for certain by now 

[i2i Killer 89]

Steven is evil, nuff said. Trying too hard to avoid being lynched. You say all this stuff about you not wanting to defend yourself anymore and avoiding lots of questions being asked of you and then constantly try to deflect the attention onto other people. You say that Hippo has some sort of vendetta against you today even though there are other suspicious people. What the fuck is that about!?

Yes, there are other suspicious people but a cop has just claimed that you are guilty, what do you expect us to do just ignore it and let you live today? It's just in the way that you post Steven, it really looks evil to me and not how countless townies have died. When a townie is lynched they usually always start by defending themselves and trying to show that other people are guilty but they do eventually just give up and say "I give up, lynch me, I know that I'm innocent but kill me if you don't believe. Just make sure that you take note of X, Y and Z who got this little bandwagon rolling". Obviously you could just be wanting to stay alive a lot more than other townies have in the past but I just think you look evil in how you are desperately trying to survive this lynch and the best way to do that is by trying to pick up on little things people have said to make them look guilty.

Not gonna wash with me, I seriously think you are evil now

[hippo]

considering I'm the one who got her lynched..  I think this is you starting to reach mate.. 

Argh. This is really annoying me. It's a lie, and i'm going to prove it. The following is largely the same as an earlier post.

Some good points made about Bluestars

Bluestars, in the last 3 games you've played, you've been town..  each time you have waited until the end of the day after heavy research before posting a vote..  you have now posted 3 or 4 times and now you are already voting..  you are playing a very different game.. 

you my dear, are mafia and I'm very sure of it.. 

i'm 99% sure she's evil.. 

you are evil dear..  and not very good at it I must say...

strange..  all of your posts are long.. you have read 7 pages of posts to get to this point in just 2 1/2 days..  if you're so busy how have you worked all this into your rigorous schedule?

..and the bizarre change of heart

however..  as I've gone back over the game today..  I've decided that yes, bluestars has changed her style of play to the extreme..  this may be because she has a highly important role for the town..

Just for those not really paying attention. That previous quote makes no sense. She had CHANGED her style of play, and in the three previous games she had been a cop (highly important role for the town), hobbit/mason (highly important role for the town), mason (important role for town. He lied about these, as highlighted below in the following quote, but it happened more than the once. He has also refused to answer why he did this many times since, including within the last page or so.

I've said it before..  I think it's clear at this point to everyone that she has a role with some action..  looking at past games, she's never had that.. normal townie, normal townie & mason.. so her change in style could be a result of her being mafia or her being a pro town role..  I've said we should go after Amadjin first and then look back to bluestars tomorrow plenty of times.. 

That last bit might have caught your eye. He's openly stating that we SHOULDN'T lynch bluestars, we should come back to it. Few more examples of this:

I've clearly said we shouldnt lynch her TODAY... 

we should re-evaluate her tomorrow based on the nights actions..

vote amadjin, if he turns out to be guilty as i suspect, then I almost positive that we'll have a guilty verdict for bluestars as well.. 

That last one's pretty standard. Linking bluestars and amadjin, but saying we should lynch amadjin first, and whatever he is will show us what Bluestars is. Completely abandoned this now she's gone though, Steve? Pretty sure that's an indication that it was only something he was saying to protect her, and not something he believes, otherwise it would surely have followed through to today in his accusations?

The situations when he voted for bluestars

He voted for her first on July 01, 2008, 2:53:00PM. This was her first vote.
He unvoted for her on July 01, 2008, 7:02:06PM. She was back down to zero votes after this.

So just to highlight, his getting her lynched, involved having his vote on her for 4 hours, 9 minutes and 6 seconds.

Then came all the stuff in the "..and the bizarre change of heart" section.

Then he revoted her on July 10, when she already had 4 votes, and was leading the vote count. This vote happened after he'd repeatedly stated he was going to commit suicide, rather than vote for her apparently.

In the time between his initial vote, and then re-applying, he voted for FIVE other people. Is that really an indication he spent this time getting her lynched? He looked for every possible option, including suicide, before giving up and voting for her.

So yeah, he DID NOT "get bluestars lynched". He's lying.

Sorry for the long post and everything, but he's lying repeatedly, and it annoyed me, because i know he knows that some people only half-read the thread, and will believe what he's saying. Hopefully this post proves what he's saying is false. None of what i've said is "skewing the facts". This post is completely factual. That's why he won't respond to any of the important things i ask him, because he knows i'm right.

[Quig]

I'm not so sure anymore. I'm begining to think that my lucky guess last night (ingame) wasn't as lucky as i thought. Read up on unforgiven and Hackmans character in that could very well be a paranoid cop. Hmm. Also, i dont think defending yourself too much could after mean your evil. Every role would defend themselves to the death. Or should at least. I really hope Steven hased duped me but Unvote: Stevenryals... FOS: Stevenryals. Just so you know your not clear just yet.

[Quig]

Was just thinking. What happens what a cult tries to recruit mafia. Cult dies. The cult leaders dead. Therefore he went for a mafia. Now who does the cult try and recruit. Strong players. Such as Hippo. Bit thin i know but..... FOS: Hippo

[Steve Van Halen]

It does appear that Shammer has picked the names himself instead of using characters from the film. Whos seen unforgiven? Could Gene Hackmans character be a proper cop, paranoid cop, crazy or a bad cop?

Not exactly a good guy. Theres no nice characters in that film really